Was the the Bahá'u'lláh the same Christ Mentioned in the Bible?

topic posted Fri, March 9, 2007 - 8:46 PM by  Eric
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In another forum
christiantalk.tribe.net/thread...f138669
I asked Anjali the following:
My understanding is that the Bahá'u'lláh, founder of the Bahá'í Faith, believed that he was the Christ who is literally seated on the Throne of David.
www.uhj.net/genealogy.htm
Do you believe this as well? If so how do you reconcile Jesus' claims to be the Christ? Also, do you believe that Jesus rose from the dead?


Anjali said:
"...Our belief is that the Christ is of the spirit, not the body, just as the Word of God , though it came as flesh in Jesus Christ as a baby, was what was eternal and pre-existing, not his physical body."

She invited me to this tribe to continue the discussion and I am curious about the baha'i interpretation of the scriptures below.

Philippians 3:20-21
But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body.

1 John 3:1-3
How great is the love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are! The reason the world does not know us is that it did not know him. Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he appears,we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. Everyone who has this hope in him purifies himself, just as he is pure.

1 Corinthians 15
35But someone may ask, "How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?" 36How foolish! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else. 38But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body. 39All flesh is not the same: Men have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another. 40There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. 41The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor.
42So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.
If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being"[e]; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. 46The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven. 48As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the man from heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. 49And just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, so shall we[f] bear the likeness of the man from heaven.
posted by:
Eric
Denver
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  • seb
    seb
    offline 5
    Firstly let me start off with a big wow! This genealogy chart is one of the coolest things I have ever seen.

    Personally I have not come across the interpretation of Bahá’u’lláh, 'Abdu'l-Bahá, or the Guardians understanding of the issue of Jesus rising from the dead. However, just through my own study of the Bible I believe it.

    But really I don’t feel that it really changes anything. If Christ did not physically rise from the dead, he most assuredly could have if he wanted to. As the son (manifestation) of God, there is nothing he could not do. I understand other Bahá’ís understanding that Jesus rose in spirit and not in body, because why would he physically bother to come back to life? His work on the earth was done, and since heaven is place of pure spirit and not of the material realm, he would not need an imperfect body.

    And everything that followed, for instance his appearance to Mary Magdalen, that could have/did occur regardless. As the son of God Christ is/was capable of anything, if he wanted to appear before Mary he could have done it without any problem.

    I feel that allot of Christians feel that Christ needed to rise from the grave in order to ‘prove’ his divinity. I feel this is an unhealthy basis to hold your belief as it is full of ego. God (and his manifestations) do not need to prove themselves to humanity, WE need to prove ourselves to him!
    • Unsu...
       
      Hey Seb, the geneology chart might be totally accurate but just wanted to tell folks here that uhj.net is a CB site. In case you see anything odd on it, that's why:-)
      • seb
        seb
        offline 5
        errr... well thanks for telling me that. I will just avoid the site then. To many times have I accidentally read things from covenant breakers, and it really depressed me. I know I'm not invulnerable to the spiritual disease they carry, but the most recognizable trait I noticed from reading their material was a deep sadness that filled my heart. I don’t like being depressed, thanks Anjali for warning me :)
        • What covenant did they break?
          • In my humble opinion and to the best of my understanding:
            The Covenant referred to is a personal one in which a Baha'i enters into when the individual says that they accept Baha'u'llah as the Manifestation of God for today and that they will follow His commandments and laws and then they turn around and try to take a piece of His Writings, interpret it and tell people that they must follow that interpretation, grasping for authority that is not theirs.

            Baha'u'llah abolished the station of clergy. He said that all human beings have the capacity to understand the Scriptual Writings and interpret them for their own hearts. Baha'u'llah then set up an Administrative Order which governs the Faith. Those who temporarily serve on the Administrative bodies are elected to do so and they have no individual power. They are a part of a group of nine people that act, through the art of consultation, in a concerted effort either on a local (the Local Spiritual Assembly), regional (Regional Councils), national (National Sprititual Assembly) or international (The Universal House of Justice) level. On all levels, except the International, people serve for one year. They do not have special privileges, nor are they paid beyond normal travel expenses, food and lodging when they are on business for the Faith. On the international level the individual, and their families, live at the World Centre and serve for a period of five years. This group of people perform the administrative functions of the Faith, collect and distribute the funds, witness marriages and funerals, consult on matters of adherence to Baha'i Laws and (in some countries) serve as local magistrates (again as a body of nine)governing disputes between Baha'is, procuring lands and buildings and providing for the education of children, both Baha'i and secular.

            Serving the Universal House of Justice in all of the countries across the world are the Continental Counselors and their assitants, the Auxiliary Board members. These people advise and encourage the local populaces in regards to matters of the Faith, social and economic development, children's classes, elections of local, regional and national assemblies, and so forth. They do not have any authoratatively administrative powers. Their positions are ones of service and advice. They are exected to be at the service of the continents and localities where they are appointed to serve and to be thoroughly acquainted with both the Writings of the central figures of the Faith as well as the plans and letters of the Universal House of Justice. They generally serve for five years. None of these people have titles, although in introductions it is not uncommon to hear someone introduced as Counsellor so & so, it is for the sake of clarification and does not denote a sprititual ranking but a line of service. No one is "raised" from childhood to be an assembly member or counsellor, nor do they attend schools to do so, etc. Baha'i elections are by secret ballot and do not permit electionering. People are voted for solely on the basis of how they have already conducted themselves in their lives and in service to the Faith.

            People who leave the Faith, or feel they no longer believe in Baha'u'llah, are not considered Covenant Breakers. It is only those individuals who say they believe, take the name Baha'i and try to appropriate it for their own nefarious endeavors. Covenant Breaking is rare and is not attributed to someone who has difficulty understanding a certain point/principle (like many in the United States in the early 1900s who didn't understand equality between the genders or the races) or is struggling to follow a law that seems obtuse to them, or to overcome an addiction. It must be a deliberate act of overtly coveting the authority of the Faith for themselves and trying to compel others to do so as well, AFTER having accepted Baha'u'llah as the Manifestation of God.

            A member of a religion who doesn't believe in Baha'u'llah and speaks against His Faith is not a Covenant Breaker.
            • Unsu...
               
              To add - a great example of covenant breaking is actually the website that you found the chart on Eric. It is called uhj.net - which steals the name of an institution, even uses a pic of the building in Israel, and pretends to be run out of there. In reality they have no association whatsoever with them. That's not to say that they don't indeed have some things that are actually true about the Baha'i faith on the website - but it's tricky, there's a mix of true and false there. heheh, a friend of mine checked it out and freaked, thinking Baha'is were some kind of wierd cult based on what he found there:-D A great website to get the basic low-down on the Baha'i faith is the wikipedia article: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baha%27i

              The official website of course offers more: www.bahai.org

              K, I've got to do some more reading to answer your original question:-)
              • Unsu...
                 
                but AGAIN a grain of salt with the wiki article - it is written by individuals, and can have mistakes. For example, I dont agree with how it says the Baha'i faith rejects the Trinity - rather, I personally would say the Baha'i Faith has an indepth interpretation of the meaning of the Trinity which might differ from how Christians explain it....so personal nuance (mine or the author's) really comes into play. When really trying to figure out what the true belief is, people end up having to go to the source within the Baha'i Writings, for themselves....
                • Unsu...
                   
                  oh, and for an example of how the uhj.net site twists the Faith's teachings - the uhj.net site has it's own list of 12 principles of the Faith, which differ in some important ways from the true 12 social principles that are found on the Wiki site....

                  Another exampel - I don't now if Baha'is believe that Krishna is to be found on that chart derived from Jewish forefathers. I've never heard that - it sounds like a big stretch - so I would be wary of that chart.....
  • Dear Eric,
    Your question is difficult in that you ask for the [official/scriptual?] Baha'i interpretation of those scriptures and to the best of my knowledge not every single line in the Bible has a Baha'i interpretation. Concepts, ideas and a some of the scripture are directly referenced by Baha'u'llah, the Bab or 'Abdu'l-Baha.

    Baha'u'llah kept four secretaries transcribing at once, after he was finally allowed visitors in Acre, Israel, through the 1880s. Not all of His scripture has been translated at it is a long, arduous task. He was specific with His as to what was important to be translated first and what were works which were either in answer to religious scriptures throughout the history of humankind as well as further Words of love, encouragement and guidance for the next one thousand years.

    So, when you ask a Baha'i what is the "official" interpretation of a specific passage from the Bible you are asking them to become scholars and look up, through over 200 volumes of translated work, to find your answer for you.

    Obviously these passages are important to you and if, perhaps, you ask Baha'is what their understanding of the passages you quoted is, you may have more response. It is my guess that anyone that is inclined to answer you is looking for the answer in Lights of Guidance or Some Answered Questions. However, I believe that the quickest way to find the answer is either through Ocean (a huge library of most of the translated work of the Central Figures of the Baha'i Faith as well as the scriptures of the other divinely inspired religions. You can find it at www.bahai-education.org/ocean/ ) or through Taherzadeh's Biography on the Life and Writings of Baha'u'llah. It would, perhaps, at least give an idea when He most likely would have written a response to any of those specific scriptures.

    ~ Carrie
    • "when you ask a Baha'i what is the "official" interpretation of a specific passage from the Bible you are asking them to become scholars and look up, through over 200 volumes of translated work, to find your answer for you.

      Obviously these passages are important to you and if, perhaps, you ask Baha'is what their understanding of the passages you quoted is, you may have more response. "

      I am OK if the response is not official. I posed these questions on the Christian Talk tribe and Anjali invited me to this tribe to continue the discussion. I am not here to judge or condemn. I am here to understand. Your post helped.
      • Unsu...
         
        To repeat what Carrie said "Your question is difficult in that you ask for the [official/scriptual?] Baha'i interpretation of those scriptures and to the best of my knowledge not every single line in the Bible has a Baha'i interpretation. Concepts, ideas and a some of the scripture are directly referenced by Baha'u'llah, the Bab or 'Abdu'l-Baha. "

        Okay, I think we all just wanted to clear about it - because I know with other religions, in time scholars and theologians will come up with different doctrines that flesh out the religion, you know? But with Baha'is, we aren't allowed to do that - what we have through scripture, what is addressed, is ALL that we have. As individuals we are allowed to come up with our own interpretations, but we arent allowed to force them on others or try to convince others of it - hence, not further doctrine will be built (at least that's my understanding.)

        I will try to come up with my own interpretation, but Dale comes from a Christian background, so he might be able to do it better justice. I am still learning.....I think one thing with the Baha'i writings is that they have so much meaning packed into seemingly simple passages, that it is easy to glean one angle or one level of meaning, inspired from your own personal experiences/cultural-religious background, but then totally miss the rest of it. Most recently, this happened with me and the concept of evil/the devil. I would have sworn up and down that Baha'is don't believe in either based on scripture. But it's only after I started reading Christian texts, then going back to Baha'i texts, that I realized I was dead WRONG about that. So with that in mind, I think Carrie is just saying take what each of us says as individuals with a grain of salt. And maybe with the perspectives we offer, you will be able to come up with your own interpretation on this for yourself which might enlighten all of us as well:-)
        • "So with that in mind, I think Carrie is just saying take what each of us says as individuals with a grain of salt. And maybe with the perspectives we offer, you will be able to come up with your own interpretation on this for yourself which might enlighten all of us as well:-)"

          i just want to stick my nose in to say that is an excellent way of discribing the reason people over at "Christian talk" disagree over some of the smaller points of Christianity.
          • Unsu...
             
            I haven't been there long enough to really see, but that certainly makes sense! I think it just tends to happen with any group of people, so it's good to have a safeguard against it, to try to be conscious of where to draw boundaries so as to try to prevent some of that arguing, you know - cuz in the end, imho, it's all really futile - only God truly knows - and also, worse, it can escalate to much higher level of arguing really for no good reason. And then it seems the greater purpose of love/harmony gets frustrated by the smaller points....
  • Eric,

    Anjali asked me to drop by and try to answer your questions. I see you've already gotten a number of responses, but I haven't had time to read them in great detail so some of this may duplicate what someone else already said.

    First (as others have already pointed out) the site you referenced with the genealogy chart is not actually associated with the Universal House of Justice. I won't get into the whys and wherefores of that right now because it will only distract us from your question. I have no idea if the chart they present is accurate or not, but myself, I wouldn't take it on faith. The only official statements I know of regarding Baha'u'llah's ancestry is that He was descended from Abraham through Abraham's third wife Katurah and that He was also descended from Zoroaster. How this is established, I have no idea. History was never my best subject. ;-)

    Jesus was called "Christ" which means "the Annointed One". This is a title signifying His station and mission with relation to God and humanity. He was also called other things, including "Son of God" and "Son of Man". As you probably know, Baha'is refer to the major Prophets and Founders of the world's great religions as "Manifestations of God" or just "Manifestations" for short. Each Manifestation of God is known by one or more titles that signify their stations and missions. I'm not sure if any of these were ever applied in Judeo-Christian traditions, but they do appear in Muslim traditions. Abraham is known as "the Friend of God", Moses as "He who Conversed with God", Jesus as "the Son of God" and (in Islamic literature) "the Spirit of God", Muhammad as "the Apostle of God", the Bab as "the Primal Point", and Baha'u'llah (which actually means "the Glory of God") as "the Pen of God" or "the Supreme Pen". There are other titles applied to them as well. These all tell us something about their relationship to God and to humanity, as well as about their missions.

    The Baha'i belief is that all of the Manifestations of God are essentially one, inasmuch as they all are sent by God to educate and heal humanity. They are all expressions of the Will of God, and they all speak and embody the Word of God. However, humanity changes and grows over time, and at different stages of its development it needs different degrees of education and different remedies for its ailments. Baha'u'llah writes:

    "The All-Knowing Physician hath His finger on the pulse of mankind. He perceiveth the disease, and prescribeth, in His unerring wisdom, the remedy. Every age hath its own problem, and every soul its particular aspiration. The remedy the world needeth in its present-day afflictions can never be the same as that which a subsequent age may require. Be anxiously concerned with the needs of the age ye live in, and center your deliberations on its exigencies and requirements."
    (Baha'u'llah, "Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah", CVI, p. 212)

    The teachings given in the Bible are true, but they are tailored for an age of humanity that has passed away. This is not to say that the teachings themselves are no longer of value (although in a few cases there may be some that are not; for example, we have passed beyond the time when it would be appropriate to punish certain crimes by stoning the criminal to death). Often there is still great value in the Bible's teachings, and Baha'is would certainly uphold them. However, often the way they are phrased is difficult for us today. Translators have tried to restate the teachings in more modern language, but what we need even more than updated language is a new set of imagery. The discussion of various kinds of "bodies" in the passages you cited is a good example of this.

    It is very hard for the human mind to comprehend what happens after the death of the body. By default, we tend to imagine ourselves in some new kind of body. But as Hollywood amply shows us, we tend to think of this new kind of body as something that looks pretty much like what we have now. It has some different properties, but its form tends to be the same. It has a "face", for example, that looks just like the person's physical face in this life. It is not at all surprising, then, that Scripture would speak of our existence after death in terms of "spiritual bodies".

    In the Baha'i Writings, however, we are given a new picture of the progression from physical life through death to the next life. We are described there not as bodies that have souls, but as souls that temporarily inhabit physical bodies. The human reality is not physical, but spiritual. Upon the death of the body, the soul continues to exist. Its form is not that of the body, because the realm it inhabits is not a physical realm. That world is freed from "the limitations of space and time". It is fundamentally unimaginable to us while we inhabit this world, but death is compared to birth. Just as a child in the womb leaves behind a very small, limited world to enter a much greater world, so the soul at death leaves behind this small and limited world to enter a much greater one. These concepts are not incompatible with those from the Bible that you quoted, but it does perhaps require us to look at them with new eyes and see in them things we might not have seen before.

    As for the role of Christ or Baha'u'llah in leading us to rebirth or new life, this is spiritual in character. Jesus did not regard physical life as the true life. Recall his comment to His disciples to "let the dead bury their dead." The "dead" in the first instance are not literal corpses. Corpses do not bury corpses. He was speaking of the spiritual state of those people. His mission was to bring spiritual life to the spiritually dead. Baha'u'llah saw His mission in the same terms.

    I'm going to stop there before I ramble too much. ;-) I hope this helps. Please feel free to ask if you have other questions or if something I said didn't make sense. Thanks!

    --Dale





    • "The Baha'i belief is that all of the Manifestations of God are essentially one, inasmuch as they all are sent by God to educate and heal humanity."

      Dale,

      Thank you for such a thorough response. Based upon your statement above, is it safe to say that Bahá'u'lláh and Jesus Christ are 2 manifestations of the same person?
      • Eric,

        I was going to say what Seb said: two manifestations of the same spirit.

        Baha'u'llah states that the Manifestions of God have a twofold station. First, because They manifest the Names and Attributes of God, work the Will of God, and speak the Word of God, they are in an abstract sense all one and the same, and could even truthfully say "I am God!" This is the station of essential unity.

        Second, they appear in this world with distinct personalities, fulfill specific missions, and may even outwardly display various limitations. This is the station of distinction and servitude.

        My wife (who was raised Catholic) tells me that one of the exercises given to Catholic children as part of their religious education is to consider the stories from the life of Jesus and identify which acts He performed as God and which acts He performed as a man. Although Baha'is do not accept the idea of incarnation, you can probably see from the above discussion that there is a definite relationship between the Christian idea of Jesus as both divine and human and the Baha'i idea of the twofold station of the Manifestation of God.

        When Baha'u'llah speaks of Himself (or of any other Manifestation of God) as the "return" of the previous Manifestations of God, He is speaking in the first station. In other cases, He speaks as a distinct personality, which is the second station.

        Personally, I don't think we can entirely understand the nature of the Manifestation of God. But I also believe that each Manifestation of God has given an accurate account of the matter, tailored to the needs of the people of His age. Baha'u'llah's explanation is the most complete we have yet been given, because at this time in our history we are ready for and in need of the "heavy-duty" version.
      • Unsu...
         
        Eric,

        I'm not having luck finding any Baha'i writings specifically about the Biblical passages you have pointed out. But to get a general understanding of Baha'i thought, i think the other's posts here do a good job of reflecting it.

        I think in general, Baha'is hold the view that much in the bible might be symbolic - but symbolic does not mean unreal. In fact, something being symbolic of a spiritual truth connotes a reality much more real than our material/mundane understanding, even though such imagery needs to be used since that is the world we know while here on this earthly plane. Then the question comes, well, how can we know when to interpret literally and when to interpret symbolically. Different denominations it seems to me follow different understandings on such things sometimes. Baha'is believe the only way to really know is through Christ himself - and that if you believe Baha'u'llah is the return of Christ, then his explanations are what hold the true answers to the points which have been debated and wondered about for centuries. So this is the light in which we weigh the Baha'i teachings on such topics, rather than rushing to argue against them saying, well, my pastor says, or I personally think - not saying in the end people can't do that, but just understand that of course, it is entirely possible that clergy and theologians over the centuries may have debated and developed a different understanding before Christ himself unseals a fuller, clearer understanding of certain mysteries. So that is just some context that might help explain the way in which Baha'is are willing sometimes to let go of understandings they used to have for explanations that Baha'u'llah gives. Similar to how Jesus revealed a new understanding of laws and relationship to God that tested the faith of many Jews, with the majority rejecting Him because what He said/taught conflicted with the teachings/interpretations of their own religious clergy/teachers - even drew down their condemnation and wrath.
        • Hi!

          (FWIW, I'm a newcomer here, though not to Baha'i forums generally. And Dale and I are personal friends from way back! Anyway, it's nice to be here, and I look forward to conversing with a bunch of you!) :-)

          As to Baha'i Writings about Biblical passages, I'm not aware offhand of which passages you're referring to, but a very good place to start is 'Abdu'l-Baha's "Some Answered Questions," which is not only Baha'i scripture but excellent explanations of various such passages and topics (and is even in modern English).

          You can find it here:

          - www.bahai-library.org (click "Baha'i Writings),
          - www.reference.bahai.org (this site is multilingual), and
          - www.bahaistudy.org (this site also has videos and talking books).

          Good hunting, and I'll see you around! :-)

          Best,

          Bruce
          • And I must, once again, toot the horn of the program Ocean, which anyone can download from Bahai Education at www.bahai-education.org/ . The nice bonus with Ocean is that you can search through all of the Writings of the Baha'i Faith, along with letters from the Universal House of Justice, and you can search through the Sacred Scriptures of many of the other religions as well including the Torah and its commentaries, The Old and New Testaments, The Bahgvad Gita, The Quran, and quite a few more. You can then compare passages and create studies and reports with the tool. Its very user friendly.
      • Unsu...
         
        I think as Dale and Seb are explaining, to understand both the unity and distinction between the Manifestations, one needs to understand Baha'i belief about the 3 stations of the Manifestation. They are one in the spiritual sense that they are the Word of God made flesh - the fact that this seems very abstract does not make it any less real or important, in fact in my mind, in a spiritual sense, is more important:-) But as individual people, they were distinct of course.

        Here is an explanation from Baha'i writings on this topic:

        38: THE THREE STATIONS OF THE DIVINE MANIFESTATIONS

        151
        Know that the Holy Manifestations, though They have the degrees of endless perfections, yet, speaking generally, have only three stations. The first station is the physical; the second station is the human, which is that of the rational soul; the third is that of the divine appearance and the heavenly splendor.

        The physical station is phenomenal; it is composed of elements, and necessarily everything that is composed is subject to decomposition. It is not possible that a composition should not be disintegrated.

        The second is the station of the rational soul, which is the human reality. This also is phenomenal, and the Holy Manifestations share it with all mankind.

        Know that, although the human soul has existed on the earth for prolonged times and ages, yet it is phenomenal. As it is a divine sign, when once it has come into existence, it is eternal. The spirit of man has a beginning, but it has no end; it continues eternally. In the same way the species existing on this earth are phenomenal, for it is established that there was a time when these species did not exist on the surface of the earth. Moreover, the earth has not always existed, but the world of existence has always been, for the universe is not limited to this terrestrial globe. The meaning of this is that, although human souls are phenomenal, they are nevertheless immortal, everlasting and 152 perpetual; for the world of things is the world of imperfection in comparison with that of man, and the world of man is the world of perfection in comparison with that of things. When imperfections reach the station of perfection, they become eternal. 1 This is an example of which you must comprehend the meaning.

        The third station is that of the divine appearance and heavenly splendor: it is the Word of God, the Eternal Bounty, the Holy Spirit. It has neither beginning nor end, for these things are related to the world of contingencies and not to the divine world. For God the end is the same thing as the beginning. So the reckoning of days, weeks, months and years, of yesterday and today, is connected with the terrestrial globe; but in the sun there is no such thing—there is neither yesterday, today nor tomorrow, neither months nor years: all are equal. In the same way the Word of God is purified from all these conditions and is exempt from the boundaries, the laws and the limits of the world of contingency. Therefore, the reality of prophethood, which is the Word of God and the perfect state of manifestation, did not have any beginning and will not have any end; its rising is different from all others and is like that of the sun. For example, its dawning in the sign of Christ was with the utmost splendor and radiance, and this is eternal and everlasting. See how many conquering kings there have been, how many statesmen and princes, powerful organizers, all of whom have disappeared, whereas the breezes of Christ are still blowing; His light is still shining; His melody is still resounding; His standard is still waving; His armies are still fighting; His heavenly voice is still sweetly melodious; His clouds are still showering gems; His lightning is still flashing; His reflection is 153 still clear and brilliant; His splendor is still radiating and luminous; and it is the same with those souls who are under His protection and are shining with His light.

        Then it is evident that the Manifestations possess three conditions: the physical condition, the condition of the rational soul, and the condition of the divine appearance and heavenly splendor. The physical condition will certainly become decomposed, but the condition of the rational soul, though it has a beginning, has no end: nay, it is endowed with everlasting life. But the Holy Reality, of which Christ says, “The Father is in the Son,” 2 has neither beginning nor end. When beginning is spoken of, it signifies the state of manifesting; and, symbolically, the condition of silence is compared to sleep. For example, a man is sleeping—when he begins to speak, he is awake—but it is always the same individual, whether he be asleep or awake; no difference has occurred in his station, his elevation, his glory, his reality or his nature. The state of silence is compared to sleep, and that of manifestation to wakefulness. A man sleeping or waking is the same man; sleep is one state, and wakefulness is another. The time of silence is compared to sleep, and manifestation and guidance are compared to wakefulness.

        In the Gospel it is said, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God.” 3 Then it is evident and clear that Christ did not reach to the station of Messiahship and its perfections at the time of baptism, when the Holy Spirit descended upon Him in the likeness of a dove. Nay, the Word of God from all eternity has always been, and will be, in the exaltation of sanctification.
  • Unsu...
     

    Baha'i concept of Trinity

    Tue, March 13, 2007 - 8:13 AM
    To explain further what we mean by a Manifestation and how they could be one, I think it is helpful to post this explanation of Baha'i concept of the Trinity - the relationship of Manifestation to God and Holy spirit, as well as the relationship of the Manifestations to each other. Sorry it is kind of long, but it is rather brief considering how long people debated the human vs. divine nature of Jesus Christ due to it's mysteriousness and magnitude:-)

    27: THE TRINITY

    113
    Question.—What is the meaning of the Trinity, of the Three Persons in One?
    Answer.—The Divine Reality, which is purified and sanctified from the understanding of human beings and which can never be imagined by the people of wisdom and of intelligence, is exempt from all conception. That Lordly Reality admits of no division; for division and multiplicity are properties of creatures which are contingent existences, and not accidents which happen to the self-existent.

    The Divine Reality is sanctified from singleness, then how much more from plurality. The descent of that Lordly Reality into conditions and degrees would be equivalent to imperfection and contrary to perfection, and is, therefore, absolutely impossible. It perpetually has been, and is, in the exaltation of holiness and sanctity. All that is mentioned of the Manifestations and Dawning-places of God signifies the divine reflection, and not a descent into the conditions of existence. 1

    God is pure perfection, and creatures are but imperfections. For God to descend into the conditions of existence would be the greatest of imperfections; on the contrary, His manifestation, His appearance, His rising are like the reflection of the sun in a clear, pure, polished mirror. All the creatures are evident signs of God, like the earthly beings upon all of which the rays of the sun shine. But upon the plains, the mountains, the trees and fruits, only a portion 114 of the light shines, through which they become visible, and are reared, and attain to the object of their existence, while the Perfect Man 2 is in the condition of a clear mirror in which the Sun of Reality becomes visible and manifest with all its qualities and perfections. So the Reality of Christ was a clear and polished mirror of the greatest purity and fineness. The Sun of Reality, the Essence of Divinity, reflected itself in this mirror and manifested its light and heat in it; but from the exaltation of its holiness, and the heaven of its sanctity, the Sun did not descend to dwell and abide in the mirror. No, it continues to subsist in its exaltation and sublimity, while appearing and becoming manifest in the mirror in beauty and perfection.

    Now if we say that we have seen the Sun in two mirrors—one the Christ and one the Holy Spirit—that is to say, that we have seen three Suns, one in heaven and the two others on the earth, we speak truly. And if we say that there is one Sun, and it is pure singleness, and has no partner and equal, we again speak truly.

    The epitome of the discourse is that the Reality of Christ was a clear mirror, and the Sun of Reality—that is to say, the Essence of Oneness, with its infinite perfections and attributes—became visible in the mirror. The meaning is not that the Sun, which is the Essence of the Divinity, became divided and multiplied—for the Sun is one—but it appeared in the mirror. This is why Christ said, “The Father is in the Son,” meaning that the Sun is visible and manifest in this mirror.

    The Holy Spirit is the Bounty of God which becomes visible and evident in the Reality of Christ. The Sonship station is the heart of Christ, and the Holy Spirit is the station of the spirit of Christ. Hence it has become certain and proved that the Essence of Divinity is absolutely unique and has no equal, no likeness, no equivalent. 115

    This is the signification of the Three Persons of the Trinity. If it were otherwise, the foundations of the Religion of God would rest upon an illogical proposition which the mind could never conceive, and how can the mind be forced to believe a thing which it cannot conceive? A thing cannot be grasped by the intelligence except when it is clothed in an intelligible form; otherwise, it is but an effort of the imagination.

    It has now become clear, from this explanation, what is the meaning of the Three Persons of the Trinity. The Oneness of God is also proved.

    Is the Divine Manifestation, God? Yes, and yet not in Essence. A Divine Manifestation is as a mirror reflecting the light of the Sun. The light is the same and yet the mirror is not the Sun. All the Manifestations of God bring the same Light; they only differ in degree, not in reality. The Truth is one. The light is the same though the lamps may be different; we must look at the Light not at the Lamp. If we accept the Light in one, we must accept the Light in all; all agree, because all are the same."[10]
  • Unsu...
     

    Baha'i teachings on the Return of Christ

    Tue, March 13, 2007 - 8:16 AM
    Again, this is a very brief account considering the magnitude of this subject, and it is only a selection of text addressing this topic, but here is the tippy-top-tip of the iceberg of Baha'i teachings concerning the return of Christ:

    26: THE SECOND COMING OF CHRIST AND THE DAY OF JUDGMENT

    110
    It is said in the Holy Books that Christ will come again, and that His coming depends upon the fulfillment of certain signs: when He comes, it will be with these signs. For example, “The sun will be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven…. And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.” 1 Bahá’u’lláh has explained these verses in the Kitáb-i-Íqán. 2 There is no need of repetition; refer to it, and you will understand these sayings.

    But I have something further to say upon this subject. At His first coming Christ also came from heaven, as it is explicitly stated in the Gospel. Christ Himself says: “And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but He that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.” 3

    It is clear to all that Christ came from heaven, although apparently He came from the womb of Mary. At the first coming He came from heaven, though apparently from the womb; in the same way, also, at His second coming He will come from heaven, though apparently from the 111 womb. The conditions that are indicated in the Gospel for the second coming of Christ are the same as those that were mentioned for the first coming, as we said before.
    The Book of Isaiah announces that the Messiah will conquer the East and the West, and all nations of the world will come under His shadow, that His Kingdom will be established, that He will come from an unknown place, that the sinners will be judged, and that justice will prevail to such a degree that the wolf and the lamb, the leopard and the kid, the sucking child and the asp, shall all gather at one spring, and in one meadow, and one dwelling. 4 The first coming was also under these conditions, though outwardly none of them came to pass. Therefore, the Jews rejected Christ, and, God forbid! called the Messiah masíkh, 5 considered Him to be the destroyer of the edifice of God, regarded Him as the breaker of the Sabbath and the Law, and sentenced Him to death. Nevertheless, each one of these conditions had a signification that the Jews did not understand; therefore, they were debarred from perceiving the truth of Christ.

    The second coming of Christ also will be in like manner: the signs and conditions which have been spoken of all have meanings, and are not to be taken literally. Among other things it is said that the stars will fall upon the earth. The stars are endless and innumerable, and modern mathematicians have established and proved scientifically that the globe of the sun is estimated to be about one million and a half times greater than the earth, and each of the fixed stars to be a thousand times larger than the sun. If these stars were to fall upon the surface of the earth, how could they find place there? It would be as though a 112 thousand million of Himalaya mountains were to fall upon a grain of mustard seed. According to reason and science this thing is quite impossible. What is even more strange is that Christ said: “Perhaps I shall come when you are yet asleep, for the coming of the Son of man is like the coming of a thief.” 6 Perhaps the thief will be in the house, and the owner will not know it.

    It is clear and evident that these signs have symbolic signification, and that they are not literal. They are fully explained in the Kitáb-i-Íqán. Refer to it.
    • Re: Baha'i teachings on the Return of Christ

      Tue, March 13, 2007 - 8:23 AM
      Anjali,

      My, you've been busy. ;-) Your comments on how "symbolic" doesn't mean "unreal" reminded me of a conversation I had a loooong time ago (well, about 20 years ago, at any rate) when I was a fairly new Baha'i. A coworker who was a born-again Christian and I were talking about interpretation of the Bible, and he was not buying the idea that "symbolic" equated with "real". Eventually I got rather frustrated. I picked up his Bible, which he had on his desk, opened the top desk drawer, tossed the Bible into it, and closed it. I then pointed to the drawer and said, "There is a light in that drawer! True or false?"

      He stared off into space for a few moments with a scowl on his face, but didn't say anything.

      I *think* he got the point, although I was never entirely sure...

      • Unsu...
         
        LOL - that is a funny and effective way of getting the point across:-) sometimes rather than saying "symbolic" meaning, i prefer to think of it as "spiritual" meaning.

        you know, i myself didn't get the importance of "symbolic", rather than automatically inserting a "just" in front of "symbolic", until I piced up that book you recommended "Metropolis of Satan". that book totally opened my eyes to how much I was missing within the writings themselves due to my own blinders. Now reading more Christian books and the bible itself is really helping me deepen my understanding of Baha'i writings further:-)
        • seb
          seb
          offline 5
          Thanks Anjali for posting! I throughly enjoyed reading these excerts and am now more motivated to continue to deepen myself :D
          • Allah'u'Abha my good friends!

            I just joined this tribal network thingy and was sort of following the thread...

            Sometimes I think we can overwhelm people by extensive quotes from the Writings. But referring to the Writings is always good too...

            I think one of things that confuses people about our beliefs is that they don't know what a Manifestation of God is and they are also confused or don't know about Progressive Revelation...

            - Art
            • Unsu...
               

              Hey Art:-)

              Tue, March 13, 2007 - 9:45 AM
              It's true they can be overwhelming, so apologies to Eric. - that's why I held off from posting lengthy quotes until now....but then I realized that my trying to explain it might twist the meaning since I am myself still learning to understand it - also because there is so much depth in the writings sometimes that Eric might find something for himself in there that I'm not thinking about, you know? Hopefully it wasn't too much!
            • "I think one of things that confuses people about our beliefs is that they don't know what a Manifestation of God is"

              I think you all have done a great job of explaning the manifestations. For, clarification though, how is this different from the Hindu concept of the avatar? Also, is it true that you have to sign a card in order to be a bahai?

              And to my man Zain...no harm no foul. Thanks again to you all for taking the time.
              • Unsu...
                 
                Hmm.....I grew up Hindu, but as I was of a low caste, I didn't really learn too much about the religious teachings itself. But from what I did read myself as a teenager, my understanding of avatar is that it is just like the Christian concept of incarnation, of God Himself descending, right? Whereas the Baha'i concept is like the mirror with the reflection of the sun within it. So that in one moment, it can say - look at me and see God; and in the next second, it could say, why do you call me God, I"m just a lowly mirror:-) So in once sense the Manifestation is God - and indeed is the way in which we are able to connect to God (thus Christ saying the only way to the Father is through himself) but looked at in another way, the Manifestation is not the same as God (thus Christ could say, "why do you call me Lord?" ).

                I think Zain might be a good one to explain the meaning of avatar actually, in case I have misunderstood it.
                • "my understanding of avatar is that it is just like the Christian concept of incarnation, of God Himself descending, right?"

                  I am not an expert on the ontology of the avatars but I would say that Christian's hold to the idea that Jesus was the only "avatar" that has been sent by God. He is not the same person as God the father, but he shares in his divine nature.
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
                    Unsu...
                     
                    In that sense, Christian incarnation, I think, is much closer to the Baha'i concept of Manifestation than avatar is. Of course each individual Hindu may have a different understanding of avatar, but I think according to mythology the understanding is that an avatar is when God himself comes to earth. But God is also still existing in the heavens at that time. So my understanding, based on Baha'i belief, is that actually what is happening in Hindu stories is similar to the concept of Manifestation - but I'm not sure that Hindus see it that way, you know?

                    According to Christian incarnation though - so is Jesus the same as God? Meaning you could say God created the universe, or say Jesus created the universe, and it would be the same thing? Or, based onw hat you are saying, is there a difference?
              • Hi, Eric! :-)

                E>[I]s it true that you have to sign a card in order to be a bahai?

                No, because it's not signing a card that makes you a Baha'i! What makes you a Baha'i is deciding that you recognize Baha'u'llah as Who He says He is and will endeavor to follow the Baha'i Covenant.

                In many countries one does sign an enrollment card as an administrative procedure after this: this puts you on the membership and mailing lists, and gives you your administrative rights as a Baha'i. These include the right to attend Baha'is-only meetings (such as Nineteen-day Feasts and conventions), to contribute to the Baha'i Funds (non-Baha'is can't), to vote, and to be elected to Baha'i administrative bodies.

                Best, :-)

                Bruce
              • More on Manifestations and the Declaration Card:

                Fri, March 16, 2007 - 11:15 PM
                "For, clarification though, how is this different from the Hindu concept of the avatar? Also, is it true that you have to sign a card in order to be a bahai? "

                Baha'is don't believe God can be "incarnated" in the flesh but rather than God's attributes can be reflected in the pure Mirror of a Manifestation such as Jesus Christ. So Jesus Christ as a Manifestation of God did not have to work on polishing His mirror. It was already a pefect and polished "mirror" and He had innate knowledge while the rest of us must work a good deal to polish our "mirroirs" so we can better relfect God's attributes.. that are reflected to us through the Manifestation of God.

                Now in the beginning of the Baha'i era, people became Baha'is or followers of Baha'u'llah and announced their declaration of belief usually be a letter sent to the Center of the Faithat the time.. So in Abdul-Baha's time they sent letters to Him declaring their belief in Baha'u'llah... The same thing happened in the early years of the Beloved Guardian Shoghi Effendi after Abdul-Baha.. People sent to him letters of their belief. Shoghi Effendi was responsible for building the administrative order of the Baha'i Faith and the letters of declaration became what we call today "Declaration Cards". These cards say that the person is applying for membership in the Baha'i Community and explains that they accept Baha'u'llah as the Promised One of the Age and that there are certain laws and institutions established by Baha'u'llah that must be obeyed. When the Baha'i Institution receives this application we try to be sure that the applicant understands the basics of being a Baha'i in order to avoid misunderstandings.

                - Art
                • Art,

                  That gives me a lot of clarification. My goal in life is to become a reflection God's attributes as outlined in 1Corinthians 13
                  www.biblegateway.com/passage/

                  So the baha'is aspiration in this regard is in line with what I believe. However, to clarify Anjali's question the bible teaches that Jesus is the word of God made flesh (incarnate).
                  www.biblegateway.com/passage/

                  After Jesus ascended, YHWH sent the Spirit of Truth to live in us and to help us keep the covenant that was mediated by His son Jesus.
                  www.biblegateway.com/passage/
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Hi, Eric!

                    We Baha'ils stipulate the Bible as containing the Word of God, but don't see it as teaching incarnation. And in fact, the Baha'i teachings strongly deny such a possibility, as this statement makes clear:

                    "Indeed, the God Who could so incarnate His own reality would, in the light of the teachings of Baha'u'llah, cease immediately to be God. So crude and fantastic a theory of Divine incarnation is as removed from, and incompatible with, the essentials of Baha'i belief as are the no less inadmissible pantheistic and anthropomorphic conceptions of God - both of which the utterances of Baha'u'llah emphatically repudiate and the fallacy of which they expose."

                    (The World Order of Baha'u'llah, pages 112-113)


                    As we see it, there other reasons why it is appropriate to refer to a Divine Messenger like Jesus as God; details upon request.

                    Best regards,

                    Bruce
                    • Unsu...
                       
                      And yet we do belive the Manifestations are the Word of God made flesh....so it seems to me that the difference is a subtle one that may be hard to detect through language and our limited minds. I believe in talks I"ve listened to by Adib Taherzadeh (if memory serves correctly, which it might not!) that the Manifestations are described similarly to how Eric described Jesus: how God "created the universe through Jesus"....

                      I"ve heard some people try to use the analogy that God is like the sun and Baha'u'llah is like the rays of sunlight through which we get light and heat and energy for everything on earth to grow....but again, language can really only go so far. This is what comes to mind especially from what I have read so far about the controversy over arianism and how the concept of the trinity was finally developed - took lots of effort (to make the understatement of the century).
                      • "I"ve heard some people try to use the analogy that God is like the sun and Baha'u'llah is like the rays of sunlight through which we get light and heat and energy for everything on earth to grow....but again, language can really only go so far. "

                        The writer of the book of hebrews utilized similar imagery to describe Jesus' relationship to the Father.

                        "In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven." Hebrews 1:1-3
                    • What about Muhammed?

                      Sat, March 17, 2007 - 9:38 AM
                      Hey Bruce! :)

                      So the Bahai stance is very similar to the Islamic view of God?

                      " Say: He, Allah, is One. Allah is He on Whom all depend. He begets not, nor is He begotten. And none is like Him." Surah112.1-4

                      Is the prophet Muhammed a manifestation as well? Thanks Bruce.

                      • Re: What about Muhammed?

                        Sat, March 17, 2007 - 12:47 PM
                        Hi again! :-)

                        E>Is the prophet Muhammed a manifestation as well?

                        Yes, indeed!

                        We still know of about a dozen of Them.

                        There have been others, too, and there will be more in the future.

                        Divine Revelation will never end, for God will always guide and inspire us!

                        Best, :-)

                        Bruce
                    • "As we see it, there other reasons why it is appropriate to refer to a Divine Messenger like Jesus as God; details upon request."

                      Did you mean appropriate or inappropriate?

                      • Greetings redux! :-)

                        B>As we see it, there other reasons why it is appropriate to refer to a Divine Messenger like Jesus as God; details upon request."

                        E>Did you mean appropriate or inappropriate?

                        Appropriate, definitely! Here's why:

                        We Baha'is teach that all the major religions of the world are divine in origin, sent by God as stages in a single divine plan. (There is only one Faith, the Faith of God.)

                        A Messenger has a dual station; He is both a man (who was born, died, etc.) and also a Manifestation of the eternal spirit of God. He may be likened to a mirror reflecting the sun. It is correct to point to the mirror and say, "That is the sun." It is also correct to say "That's not the sun, only a mirror." Thus Jesus said, "Why callest thou Me good? There is none good but the Father in Heaven" (Jesus the man speaking), but also said "Before Abraham was, I am" and "No one comes to the Father but by Me" (the eternal spirit speaking, here called "Christ"). This latter "but by Me" quote refers to the fact that only through these Messengers can humankind know God.

                        In the Baha'i scriptures, it's expressed like this:

                        [quote]
                        {161}[I]t is evident ...that the Bearers of the trust of God are made manifest unto the peoples of the earth as the Exponents of a new Cause and the Bearers of a new Message. Inasmuch as these Birds of the Celestial Throne are all sent down from the heaven of the Will of God, and as they all arise to proclaim His irresistible Faith, they therefore are regarded as one soul and the same person. For they all drink from the one Cup of the love of God, and all partake of the fruit of the same Tree of Oneness. These Manifestations of God have each a twofold station. One is the station of pure abstraction and essential unity. In this respect, if thou callest them all by one name, and dost ascribe to them the same attribute, thou hast not erred from the truth. Even as He hath revealed: "No distinction do We make between any of His Messengers!" For they one and all summon the people of the earth to acknowledge the Unity of God, and herald unto them the [river] of an infinite grace and bounty. They are all invested with the robe of Prophethood, and honoured with the mantle of glory. Thus hath Muhammad, the Point of the Qur'an, revealed: "I am all the Prophets." Likewise, He saith: "I am the first Adam, Noah, Moses, and Jesus."... Sayings such as this, which indicate the essential unity of those Exponents of Oneness, have also emanated from the Channels of God's immortal utterance, and the Treasuries of the gems of divine knowledge, and have been recorded in the scriptures. These Countenances are the recipients of the Divine Command, and the day-springs of His Revelation. This Revelation is exalted above the veils of plurality and the exigencies of number. Thus He saith: "Our Cause is but one." Inasmuch as the Cause is one and the same, the Exponents thereof also must needs be one and the same...

                        {162}It is clear and evident ... that all the Prophets are the Temples of the Cause of God, Who have appeared clothed in divers attire. If thou wilt observe with discriminating eyes, thou wilt behold them all abiding in the same tabernacle, soaring in the same heaven, seated upon the same throne, uttering the same speech, and proclaiming the same Faith. Such is the unity of those Essences of being, those Luminaries of infinite and immeasurable splendour. Wherefore, should one of these Manifestations of Holiness proclaim saying: "I am the return of all the Prophets," He verily speaketh the truth. In like manner, in every subsequent Revelation, the return of the former Revelation is a fact...

                        {191}We have already in the foregoing pages assigned two stations unto each of the Luminaries arising from the Daysprings of eternal holiness. One of these stations, the station of essential unity, We have already explained. "No distinction do We make between any of them." The other is the station of distinction, and pertaineth to the world of creation and to the limitations thereof. In this respect, each Manifestation of God hath a distinct individuality, a definitely prescribed mission, a predestined Revelation, and specially designated limitations. Each one of them is known by a different name, is characterized by a special attribute, fulfils a definite Mission, and is entrusted with a particular Revelation. Even as He saith: "Some of the Apostles We have caused to excel the others. To some God hath spoken, some He hath raised and exalted. And to Jesus, Son of Mary, We gave manifest signs, and We strengthened Him with the Holy Spirit."

                        {192}It is because of this difference in their station and mission that the words and utterances flowing from these Well-springs of divine knowledge appear to diverge and differ. Otherwise, in the eyes of them that are initiated into the mysteries of divine wisdom, all their utterances are in reality but the expressions of one Truth. As most of the people have failed to appreciate those stations to which We have referred, they therefore feel perplexed and dismayed at the varying utterances pronounced by Manifestations that are essentially one and the same.

                        {193}It hath ever been evident that all these divergences of utterance are attributable to differences of station. Thus, viewed from the standpoint of their oneness and sublime detachment, the attributes of Godhead, Divinity, Supreme Singleness, and Inmost Essence, have been and are applicable to those Essences of being, inasmuch as they all abide on the throne of divine Revelation, and are established upon the seat of divine Concealment. Through their appearance the Revelation of God is made manifest, and by their countenance the Beauty of God is revealed. Thus it is that the accents of God Himself have been heard uttered by these Manifestations of the divine Being.

                        {194}Viewed in the light of their second station - the station of distinction, differentiation, temporal limitations, characteristics and standards, - they manifest absolute servitude, utter destitution and complete self-effacement. Even as He saith: "I am the servant of God. I am but a man like you."

                        {195}From these incontrovertible and fully demonstrated statements strive thou to apprehend the meaning of the questions thou hast asked, that thou mayest become steadfast in the Faith of God, and not be dismayed by the divergences in the utterances of His Prophets and Chosen Ones.

                        {196}Were any of the all-embracing Manifestations of God to declare: "I am God!" He verily speaketh the truth, and no doubt attacheth thereto. For it hath been repeatedly demonstrated that through their Revelation, their attributes and names, the Revelation of God, His name and His attributes, are made manifest in the world. Thus, He hath revealed: "Those shafts were God's, not Thine!" And also He saith: "In truth, they who plighted fealty unto thee, really plighted that fealty unto God." And were any of them to voice the utterance: "I am the Messenger of God," He also speaketh the truth, the indubitable truth... For they are all but one person, one soul, one spirit, one being, one revelation. They are all the manifestation of the "Beginning" and the "End," the "First" and the "Last," the "Seen" and "Hidden" - all of which pertain to Him Who is the innermost Spirit of Spirits and eternal Essence of Essences. And were they to say: "We are the servants of God," this also is a manifest and indisputable fact. For they have been made manifest in the uttermost state of servitude, a servitude the like of which no man can possibly attain. Thus in moments in which these Essences of being were deeply immersed beneath the oceans of ancient and everlasting holiness, or when they soared to the loftiest summits of divine mysteries, they claimed their utterance to be the Voice of divinity, the Call of God Himself. Were the eye of discernment to be opened, it would recognize that in this very state, they have considered themselves utterly effaced and non-existent in the face of Him Who is the All-Pervading, the Incorruptible. Methinks, they have regarded themselves as utter nothingness, and deemed their mention in that Court an act of blasphemy. For the slightest whispering of self, within such a Court, is an evidence of self-assertion and independent existence. In the eyes of them that have attained unto that Court, such a suggestion is itself a grievous transgression. How much more grievous would it be, were aught else to be mentioned in that Presence, were man's heart, his tongue, his mind, or his soul, to be busied with anyone but the Well-Beloved, were his eyes to behold any countenance other than His beauty, were his ear to be inclined to any melody but His voice, and were his feet to tread any way but His way.

                        (The Book of Certitude, pages 152-154, 176-180)
                        [end quote]

                        Best regards, :-)

                        Bruce
        • Anjali,

          Yeah, it's interesting how the more one reads from a wide variety of Scripture, the more one finds the inner meanings and can see how they are all saying pretty much the same things.

          Regarding the use of "spiritual" vs. "symbolic", sometimes there may be a point to it, but I've also heard people object to the "spiritualization" of the Bible, by which they mean not taking it completely literally. I think it's a case of what my mom used to say: "You can't win for losing." ;-)

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