Another weak argument: Jesus warns his followers against looking towards prophets who say they are Christ returned. Baha'is counter by saying Baha'u'llah does not come as Christ, but with a new name. But despite the name, he claims to be the Christ - this cannot be explained away.

Baha'is say that Christians have a duty to investigate claims of the return, whereas Jesus warns such will be deceptions. Jesus says to watch for his coming, but it is described, symbolically or not, that it will be an obvious event. That is why, imho, he says at the same time, don't investigate the claims of those who say Christ has returned, while simultaneously asking the disciples to keep watch.

Baha'is also refer to "thief in the night" to describe how silently Christ will return, and he will be gone before the rest of the world "wakes up" to it. This is another misinterpretation. "Thief in the night" describes when he will come, not how he will come. Meaning - the day is unknown, it comes unexpectedly. Not that when it comes it will happen in a way most people don't notice. Believing the latter is in contradiction with Jesus' sayings that it will be apparent to everyone, and not to go investigate claims, instead wait for the signs. Beliving the former makes sense of it.

These are certain points that Baha'is need to re-address differently. Current explanations are really insufficient except for those who look to the Bible purely through the Baha'i eyes.

In general, Baha'i arguments need to be able to stand without relying on the faith in/commitment to the authority of the Central Figures in order to really be strong. I'm not saying this is the only way they would be true - for all I know, the Central Figures are totally right. But another reason the arguments aren't so convincing upon closer study is you realize you are caught in circular logic with this faith/trust in authority of the Central Figures at the core of it - take that factor away, and the whole thing unravels. Keep that part of it, and you get a beautiful, beautiful faith full of hope for everyone, something that I really loved as much as anyone. But take it away, and the whole thing falls apart. I first learned how to get wrapped up in what, for me anyway was faith based on circular logic when I took to heart Baha'u'llah's admonition that we must weight his words according to HIS scale, and not ours. When we do this, his vision works, of course....because we take it all on his terms. And for me, what I saw was so beautiful and in confirmation of what I most dreamed of in terms of reconciliation of various religions, that I got hooked to it. Perhaps others have a more genuine faith, but I realized for me this is what it was, rather than true faith.

Another thing I noticed....at first it seems really good and beautiful, that Baha'is accept the validity of all major world religions. However, to see it this way, we need to use Baha'u'llah's key. What is an amazing sight is the vision you get when you first use his key and turn it - all the diverse, seemingly conflicting religions seem to merge together beautifully in a complex pattern, like a kaleidescope, so breathdatkingly beautiful. But despite the explanations and sometimes words to the contrary, what actually happens is, in doing so, the crux of the beliefs, the foundations of those religions must be completely distorted/shattered to fit this beautiful Baha'i vision. I ignored this for some time, didn't care, just liked the beauty of it, and was so immersed in Baha'i writings I didn't look closer. I assumed things were corrupted, etc. I was troubled by certain things, such as 'Abdu'l-Baha'is claims about the Buddha, which seemed like a big stretch, but I took it on faith. Same with Islam - there was so much disturbing me, but I took it on faith and tried to do some research to accept Islam as a true religion. But mainly just took Baha'u'llah's word for it, cuz I couldn't convince myself otherwise.

But upone looking more closely at the crucifixion and resurrection, all of this unravels - I am forced to face the fact that the doctrines of the Baha'i Faith, Islam, and Christianity are completely at odds. Islam teaches there wans't even a crucifixion. We know what Baha'is teach. Here's the thing - I can understand the logic behind corruption as time goes by. But for the very earliest Christians to have been deluded makes NO sense to me for a true religion of God. And the resurrection is so central - in ways that Baha'is don't understand, that to say it was a corruption means the entire earliest Christian thought was corrupt - the entire religion, from ti's very roots/inception, was corrupted with this doctrine which permeates much more than is apparent to outside eyes. I can't explain it away in this case because of all of the historical research which confirms this, regardless of whether the resurrection even happened. The resurrection was central to their understanding of HOW Christ was the Messiah and the significance of it. I didn't understand this as a Baha'i. And this does not jibe with the Baha'i idea that religions are eventually corrupted - nor does it jibe with admittedly my own idea of how God's religion would form, and I've already said how anyone who reads the Gospel account will have a very hard time beliving the resurrection is allegorical - you have to blind yourself to all logic and think in an almost devious way of how to deny what is plainly there....

What else makes me suspicious is that this is the crossroads...the resurrection. Not so much the other stuff - there is agreement in othe rways, or ways to explain things away, or perhaps overlook enigmas via faith....but the resurrection, and the historicity of belief in it, and eyewitness accounts which don't seem to any logical person to be allegorical....the fact that THIS is what is central to Christianity, even more important than Christ's teachings (thought they are crucial as well of course) this is what was SO important in terms of Messiahship and the work Christ did, is rooted in the resurrection. And the concept of Christ as God, of course. Islam and The Baha'i Faith, no matter how much they praise Jesus and say to accept Jesus, and to accept the Bible.....they deny this one crucial thing.

I used to think that finding truth, any truth, and beauty, or in the case of the Baha'i Faith, incredible beauty, was enough to prove it was God's religion. I no longer think that. AT best, it proves that God wafts through various faiths and various people, and you can sense it there. At worst......Satan is clever enough to cloak the only untruth that matters, in heaps and heaps of beauty and light and even some spiritual truths. I saw all of this like it's conclusive, but I don't mean to use that voice. These are purely my thoughts. I"m not here to convince anyone, honestly. I am just pointing out things that disturbed me. If Baha'is eventually find a convincing way to explain these things away, to shed new light (NEW light, not the old explanations which I believe don't hold), then maybe I could be a Baha'i again. So really, I'm not here trying to bash the Faith - you could look at these points I made, seek to understand them through research, and then maybe come up with a new explanation that has never come up before, which explains all these gaps and contradictions.

(pant, pant:-)

Good-bye for now, and I hope you all get to work eventually to explore and shed light on these things:-)

Just a few thoughts...

In regards to the resurrection...

Yes, the Baha'i Faith stresses the aspects of a spiritual resurrection, but honestly, I have not read where it totally discounts the possibility of a physical event as well. So personally, I remain open to that possibility. But rather the importance of the resurrection is the spiritual message it conveys. I believe that Christ sacrificed Himself in order to teach us all that we are spiritual beings, that no matter what happens to our bodies, our spirit / soul continues on. This to me is it's significance. Whether or not His body rose from the grave is of no consequence.

Regarding Jesus warning about anyone saying they are Christ...

true...but when you actually read what Baha'u'llah says about Himself...he never once claims to be "Christ"...he refers to Himself as "The Promised One", "The Father is come...", "This is the Word which the Son concealed...", "...this is the One Who hath glorified the Son...", "He who is the Spirit of Truth is come...". Granted Shoghi Effendi and others refer to Him as the Return of Christ...but Baha'u'llah Himself never said it in those words.

Regarding corruption of the bible...

I don't believe the bible is corrupted...perhaps a few things may have been changed in translations, but the Word of God still shines through. The issue of corruption is more with those who state that their interpretations are what the bible means. And there is a plethera of these so-called official interpretations. That is where the corruption lies, not in the bible itself.

that's all for now...i'll be back if i think of anything else.

Greetings!

And there is also the important fact that in first John 4:2 the Bible gives a criterion for determining which prophet is true: If he says Jesus came in the flesh, he's true and of God!

Since Baha'u'llah stipulates this, this test is clearly passed, as well as things like the "fruits" test in Galatians!

Best,

Bruce